my project reborn

[silverknight]

well, i decided today with the help of my freind j-rod to start fixing up the 1962 caddy thats been sitting for 4 or 5 yrs. goin to get it runnin and driveable.

the motor is a 390 ci v8 that hasnt been started in 4-5 years. so were goin to do new plugs and wires, oil change, battery, and whatever other engine crap needs to be done. hopefully all will turn out well on that part. the suspension is pretty much dried up, but as long as nothing is goin to fall off of it ill be happy. i think the tranny needs a new rear seal and hopefully that will be it.
anyone have any tips on resurecting old cars? i know i will need new gas, and to shoot some stuff into the carb when starting. since the tranny is goin to get a new seal, i know im goin to need to add some fluid, cause its all old, but is it recommended to change it completly? what about rear end? Power Steering... i think it has it? im sure ill have to redo the brakes too. they are gigantic drums. and anyone know where i can get some nice "cheaper" whitewall tires?
i really want this thing good for some simple crusing, no racing. i mean... its a 6,000lb car or something. i just want up to 45mph to go cruising around town and an occasional 90mile round trip to gratiot and woodward and some other car cruises.. oh, which reminds me.. what do i do with the radiator? flush and fill?

[Strtracer]

Mario, that car would be kick ass as a driver.

Before you try to crank wake the beast, try a breaker bar and socket on the end of the crank to see if it will turn over by hand, if it doesnt, spray some penetrating oil in the cylinders and let it sit, then try again. All old gas must be removed from the tank, you may have to rebuild the carb, but wait until youve tried to fire it before spending the money. Once the motor will spin by hand, install fresh plugs, oil, and filter, and prime the oil pump by removing the distributor and turning the oil pump shaft with an adapter and a 1/2 inch electric drill, this will push oil into all the passages that are now bone dry. Re install the distributor, prime the carb by pouring gas into bowl vent on the top of the carb, work the throttle a few times to see if the carb squirts gas into the intake(if not, you will need a rebuild), in case it doesnt prime, have some starting fluid on hand. If she fires up and runs, only run it for a little while, check for oil, gas ,and coolant leaks. Let us know how it goes,and we'll continue form there. Good luck. That car will be a slick ass Woodward Cruiser

[Swifster]

In no certain order, you will need to redo the following;

1) Drain the gas tank, and while the tank is down, check the sending unit to make sure it works as well. Check the engine frame to make sure the fuel lines are not rotted thru.
2) Rebuild the carb. You very likely have had small critters living in it and any rubber gaskets, seals and pumps will need to be replaced.
3) A new fuel pump (the diaphram will be junk)
4) New plugs, wires, cap, rotor AND POINTS
5) New fuel filter
6) New brakes all the way around. This includes the rubber hoses, wheel cylinders and possibly the master cylinder. Check all the brake lines for rust problems.
7) Before starting this car, pull the plugs and spray the cylinders with WD-40. try turning the engine over by hand to make sure it will spin freely.
8) Change the oil and filter.
9) Change the battery
10) Change the belts
11) Change the tires (most likely dry rotted)
12) Change trans fluid and filter
13) Change rear end fluid
14) Check to timing and verify the vacuum advance still works.
15) Change the oil again
16) Change the trans fluid again
17) Check to power steering for leaks and operation
18) Check the charging system to make sure it's charging
19) Check the front end for loose tie rods and ball joints.
20) When doing the brakes, replace the front wheel bearings. Make sure the drums are good and buy the hardware kits too
21) Check your coil to make sure it's good (ohm meter)
22) Check the shocks and replace as necessary in pairs
23) Check the old tires for abnormal wear. This will help guide you in looking for front end problems.
24) When starting the engine, do not rev the engine over 2000 RPM's. If this car wasn't abused, it will most like have a ridge in the cylinders. I doubt this engine saw many 5000 rpm outbursts. Run the engine hard and you may break/crack the rings.
25) Flush the cooling system and hope the radiator holds. Watch the water temp as the thermostat could get stuck closed from age.
26) Pray
27) Have a gold card...

[silverknight]

gold card i do have... i talked to my freind about the "POINTS" what exactly are they? i heard something about having to buy something and it being a PITA.
thanks for all the helpful tips, hopefully i can get it goin in a few months... just have to hold on some projects for the taurus but im sure it will be worth it. the only crappy part about the caddy is the AM radio, which im not sure if i wanna replace. then since the inside of the trunk looks kinda shady i might make an MDF board and carpet liner. id like some boom inside of it, but if i just cut off the mufflers and have a nice v8 rumble ill be happy enough.

[Swifster]

Basic Points Type Inductive Discharge Ignition Systems by
Dan Masters and Bob Sykes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most LBCs use this type of ignition system. Later cars benefit from the miracles of Electronic Ignition systems which are not described here, but most of the same principles apply. One can think of electronic ignitions as "improved points."

The basic ignition system consists of; the Ignition Coil, Points, Capacitor (aka Condenser), Distributor and Sparking Plugs. A ballast resistor may also be included in this system. Various bits of wire connect all these parts together and move the electrons to the right place at the right time, hopefully. Without the aid of diagrams, the scope of this is limited, but the function of each component is described briefly below, For simplicity's sake, no formulas will be used, only descriptions of the various aspects.

Ignition Coil - This is the part that makes high voltage (approx. 20KV for a stock coil, and up to 40KV for a high performance coil) for the spark plugs from the low voltage (12V) that is supplied to it by the car. It is basically a simple transformer operating on the principle of "mutual inductance". The coil stores up energy over a relatively long (for ignition systems) period of time and then releases it suddenly to the spark plugs via the distributor and HT wiring.

Coil operation - when the points close, current through the coil primary increases from zero to a maximum value (determined by circuit resistance) in an exponential manner, rapidly at first, then slowing as the current reaches it's maximum value. The rate at which the current rises is determined by the coil inductance and the circuit resistance. At low engine speeds, the points are closed long enough to allow the current to reach a level limited only by the total circuit resistance, ie, a DC value. At higher speeds, the points open before the current has time to reach this maximum value. In fact, at very high speeds, the current may not reach a value high enough to provide sufficient spark, and the engine will begin to miss. This current through the coil builds a magnetic field around the coil. When the points open, The current through the coil is disrupted, and the field collapses. The collapsing field tries to maintain the current through the coil. Without the capacitor, the voltage will rise to a very high value at the points, and arcing will occur. The time for the field to collapse will also increase. With the capacitor, the current provided by the collapsing field will discharge through it, limiting the voltage at the points, and the current/field will collapse very rapidly, having a discharge path to ground through the capacitor.

The coil, capacitor, and resister form a tuned, oscillator circuit. When the coil is completely discharged, the capacitor is completely charged. Now, the capacitor will try to discharge to the coil. Without resistance, there is nothing to limit the coil or capacitor discharge current, and the cycle will repeat, ie, the coil will charge, then discharge to the capacitor, which will charge, then discharge to the coil, etc. With the resistance, however, the current is "dampened," and the amplitude of the oscillating current is reduced rapidly, dropping to negligible within 3-4 cycles.

When the magnetic field of the primary coil collapses, it cuts through the windings of the secondary coil, producing an output voltage. The magnitude of the output voltage is determined primarily by the windings ratio and by the speed at which the primary field collapses. A slow collapse will produce a lower output than a rapid collapse. Until the arc occurs at the plugs, the output of the secondary is nearly an open circuit, allowing the voltage to reach a peak before current is produced. As soon as the spark occurs, the resistance is reduced, and current flows through the plug gap, maintaining the arc. The primary and secondary windings are isolated from each other, so that no current in one flows through the other. However, the secondary is connected to the primary at the point where the primary connects to the points and capacitor, and there is no direct path for the return of the secondary current other than through the capacitor. As a result, the capacitor is part of the secondary as well as the primary. There is an oscillation in the secondary, just as there is in the primary, for the same reasons. By properly selecting the coil/capacitor parameters, the designer can "tune" the circuit to provide the most effective output voltage, as described below.

Typical Ignition-Coil Parameters
Turns Ratio 100:1
Secondary 25,000 turns #41
Primary 250 turns #22
Primary Inductance 6 to 10 mH
Primary Resistance about 1.5 ohms
Secondary Inductance 40 H
Secondary Resistance 10 kilohms

Points - Ignition points are a set of electrical contacts to switch the coil off and on at the appropriate time. The points are opened and closed by the mechanical action of the distributor shaft lobes pushing on them. The maximum amount of (coil primary) current that can be switched by points is about 4 amps. Above this level points burnout may occur.

Capacitor (Condenser) - The capacitor performs several functions. It prevents the points from arcing and prevents coil insulation breakdown by limiting the rate of voltage rise at the points. It's primary function is to provide for a rapid decay of the primary coil current. The capacitor also "third-harmonic" tunes the coil, raising the peak output voltage and increasing the secondary voltage rise time. This increases the efficiency and the amount of energy transferred to the spark plugs. If the coil secondary voltage rises too quickly, excessive high frequency energy is produced. This energy is then lost into the air-waves by electro-magnetic radiation from the ignition wiring instead of going to the spark plugs where we would like it to go. Voltage rise time should be more than 10 microseconds; a 50-microsecond rise time is OK. Conventional systems have a typical rise time of about 100 microseconds.

[Swifster]

Continued...

Distributor - The electrical "traffic cop" which directs the voltages to their proper places at the correct time. It routes the high voltage generated by the coil to the intended spark plug via the HT wiring. The distributor houses and operates the points, and capacitor (described above). The standard points type distributor can produce ignition timing errors in three ways: 1) wear of the rubbing block, 2) variations in the cam profile, 3) shaft eccentricity.

Sparking Plug(s) - These are the business end of the ignition system. The sparkplugs take the electrical energy provided to them by the rest of the ignition system and turn this into the (hopefully) optimum spark event which ignites the fuel. Proper polarization of the coil is necessary to provide a negatively charged high voltage to the center electrode of the spark plug, which is hotter than the outside electrode. This enables us take advantage of thermionic emission* which reduces the voltage required by 20 to 50% for a given spark magnitude. The plug gap affects both the voltage and the energy required. As the plug gap is increased, the required voltage increases, but the required energy decreases.
*Thermionic emission - (aka Edison effect) The propensity of some metals to give up their free electrons more easily when heated, actually boiling off of the metal. This is the fundamental operating principle of vacuum tubes, once called thermionic tubes.

Ballast Resistor - This is an electrical resistor which is switched in and out of the supply voltage to the ignition coil. It makes the engine much easier to start by effectively doubling** the voltage provided to the ignition coil when the engine is being cranked, compensating for the reduced battery voltage. This provides a much better spark just when the car needs it most. When starting a cold engine, the plugs and the air are cold, the cylinder pressure is up, and the fuel / air mixture is poorly controlled. The oil is thick, the battery is cold and its voltage drops as much as 60% because of the high current drained by the starter motor. It's a wonder the car starts at all.
**Actually is cuts the voltage to the coil in half when the car is already running, but it's easier to understand the first way. A nominally 6 Volt coil is used in a ballasted ignition system.

Internal coil resistance - Resistance built into the coil, in addition to the inherent resistance in the copper windings, to limit current through the points at idle and low rpm operation. This resistance is not to be confused with the ballast resister mentioned above. It serves a completely different function. As stated above, at low engine speeds, the primary coil current can reach a higher value than at high speeds. If a coil is designed to provide sufficient output at high speeds, the primary coil current can reach excessive values at low speed. Conversely, if the coil is designed to limit low speed primary current, it may lack sufficient power at high speeds. One way to provide for both low and high speed operation is to provide a "ballast" resister in series with the primary winding. This resistance consists of an iron wire coil. Iron has the property of increasing resistance with temperature. At low speed, the high current heats up the iron wire, increasing its resistance, and reducing current. At high speed, the current, as described above, is less, so the iron wire resistance does not increase, thus the current is not limited. There are other design technique available to provide for wide speed variations, so not all coils will use an internal resistance.

Dwell angle - the degrees of rotation of the cam/distributor during which the points are closed. During each rotation of the cam/distributor, the points must open and close once for each cylinder. For a 4 cylinder engine, this allows 90 degrees of rotation for each cylinder, (360/4,) for a 6 cylinder, 60 degrees, and for an 8 cylinder, 45 degrees. For reasons stated above, the points must stay closed long enough to allow the coil primary current to reach an acceptable value, and open long enough to discharge and produce a spark. Typically, the ratio of closed to open is on the order of 3 to 1, ie closed for 45 degrees and open for 15 in a 6 cylinder engine.
This really only scratches the surface of ignition systems. You have been spared topics like Cylinder pressure, Ignition-voltage waveshape, Timing, Capacitance, Inductance, formulas with Greek letters and other technical mumbo-jumbo. But then there's always part 2.....

[Steve Starnes]

Definately keep us posted on how its turning out Mario. Sounds like the Caddy is gonna be a pretty sweet ride!

[silverknight]

put fuel through canister, added battery. will turn over but wont start.... i need help

[BigWheelinBubba]

Originally Posted by silverknight

put fuel through canister, added battery. will turn over but wont start.... i need help

Check for spark..if it has some pour a LITTLE gas down the carb. If it starts you got fuel system problems.

[1Quick88]

most likely ur gonna have to start it with pouring gas into the carb and keep it runnin for a little bit until the fuel pump primes itself.

[silverknight]

we used an old suringe and put more gas into the carb and deeper.. it still didnt start, so i opened up the choke a bit more, and bamm it started. im wondering if the electric choke is broken on it. but boy was it smelly.. the old exhaust burning all the shit out. and i definitly have to change the oil on it next chance i get. i think the rings may be a lil worn out. im thinking about makin some sort of dual exhaust with an h-pipe for the bitch. no mufflers.

next step.. change all fluids and redo brakes

[BigWheelinBubba]

Originally Posted by silverknight

we used an old suringe and put more gas into the carb and deeper.. it still didnt start, so i opened up the choke a bit more, and bamm it started. im wondering if the electric choke is broken on it. but boy was it smelly.. the old exhaust burning all the shit out. and i definitly have to change the oil on it next chance i get. i think the rings may be a lil worn out. im thinking about makin some sort of dual exhaust with an h-pipe for the bitch. no mufflers.

next step.. change all fluids and redo brakes

Swap in a LS1

[silverknight]

as soon as i spend like $300 in parts and a bunch of hours in labor. plus getting a newer junkyard tire or two. if u come over after i change the oil we can start lifting the back end up so i can get to the gas tank. and the rear end. and maybe since u know soo much about breaking trannies u can help me change my rear seal and u joints?? pretty please with a cherry on top. i dont think my dad is goin to help me any more on it. im not sure if i want him to. its my project and im bringin it to life. but damm, u should have seen the smile on his face when we got it running. giant grin from ear to ear. i bet the first time he sees it move under its own power he will be the same, then the maiden voyage.

[silverknight]

did an oil change and a fuel flush, gas lines and tank where good and clean. all lines pretty clean. car runs good, but missing a bold on the valve cover or head and has slight exhaust leak or something that we have to get fixed. have to find out where the return spring for the gas pedal goes so it will come back to normal position. we found out that almost all the exterior lights work other than the pass headlight and one of our brakelights doesnt work correctly. nothing else on the interior work s tho.. no power windows or radio. so have to figure that out. tomorrow is tranny, rear diff, and maybe some other electrical crap..

[ReiKo]

good luck!